Bicycle Framebuilding Information
A couple of summers ago, I got involved in my first attempt at framebuilding/modification.
I tried converting a normal rigid MTB frame into a rear-suspension frame.
I started with a 1988 Schwinn Sierra MTB frame that I got new for the nice
low price of $25, and it's even full chromoly! For the spring unit, I used
ProFlex MCU's. I used ball joints for all pivots.
A lot of the online information on brazing that I received
from several helpful people is presented below.
The frame hopefully will look something like this when finished:
Long Overdue Update:
Well, I finished the bike about a year ago, and just never got around to scanning photos.
The project was a success in someways and a failure in others...namely, though I got the bike together and
actually rode it a bit, the rear end proved to be much too flexible and bent easily. It needs to be strengthened/reinforced.
I have a couple of ideas on how to do that, but I lost my brazing-friendly workspace before I could
try any of them out. I recently moved into a house with a garage and backyard, and very well may try to
recussitate this frame, which has been hanging on the wall for the past 2 years...the parts you see in the accompanying photos
were transplanted onto an '89 Rockhopper frame, since I had dumped more money than planned into getting that old M3 fork
functional, and I was damn well gonna get some use out of it!
Well, here's the bike.
And, just to prove that I did indeed actually ride this thing, here's proof.
Here are some construction details. The following picture shows how I used ball joints
to form the main pivot. The cut ends of the chainstays were slotted and crimped together,
and nuts were brazed in the ends. The ball joints thread into the nuts, and an additional
nut on each ball joint serves as a locknut. The stubs of chainstay left on the bottom bracket
were reinforced by silver-brazing 2 oval 'plates', formed from bike-frame tubing, to each
outside edge. A hole was then drilled horizontally through each chainstay stub, and then the
stubs were slotted by dilligent application of various files and a hacksaw to accept the
round end of the ball joint. A bolt, a nut, and a couple of plastic shims for each chainstay
complete the assembly.
As you can see, the only thing holding the two chainstays together is the brake bridge. Since
the chainstays are no longer rigidly attatched to the BB shell, they are more-or-less free to
now also move in a horizontal plane...the only things attempting to prevent them from doing
this are the brakebridge and the rear axle, clamped into the rear dropouts. A bent brake
bridge and a tweaked rear axle were proof that things weren't strong enough. Shortly
after these photos were taken, I purchased a bolt-on cantilever brake adaptor, which lets
you mount canti's on a frame or fork that doesn't have braze-ons for them. This thing is
a U-shaped piece of 1/2" tubular steel with a hole at the bottom of the U for a brake-bridge (or fork)
mounting bolt, and canti studs welded on the other side. My current plan is to remove the
canti studs and braze this U onto the chainstays to stiffen things up. Problem here is that under
the chainstays is the U-brake, and over the chainstays is the front derailleur...basically
there's not enough room for this thing...a U-shaped piece cut out of plate steel would be
better, since it'd be thinner, and it'd fit between the top of the chainstays and the front derailleur.
An alternate idea is to just remove the brake bridge altogether, and replace it with a larger-diameter
section cut from a top tube or a down tube. The idea here is that the larger-diameter tube
would be more resistant to bending and therefore stiffen things up. I am worried about the brazing
required for this solution, however, because it's close enough to the nuts brazed into the
ends of the chainstays to possibly melt their joints and allow them to shift, throwing things drastically
out of alignment.
Here's a closeup shot of the seatstay pivots, which were fabricated in much the same way
as the BB/chainstay pivots: A nut was brazed onto the cut end of the seatstay. Through this threads
a smaller ball joint, which attatches to a reinforced and slotted seatstay stub with a bolt and nut.
Lots more filing here.
These two photos provide some more detail on the rear spring assembly...remember it's taken
from a Proflex. The bottom photo shows how I fabricated the spring unit. A large washer (2" OD x
1/2" ID) was brazed to the upper stubs of the seatstays. A smaller washer and nut were brazed
up inbetween the "Y" formed by the stubs. Down at the other end, a 2-inch piece of downtube was brazed
between the seatstays, which were bent inwards and filed to meet it. Another washer was brazed to the
top of the assembly.
Inside the yellow MCUs is a hollow 1/2" aluminum slider tube. A 100mm bolt
runs up from the bottom of the spring through this tube and screws into the nut attatched between
the Y of the seatstay stubs. A small plastic bushing is mounted in the hole in the lower 2" washer
to reduce wear on the slider tube. Another washer is installed at the bottom end of the 100mm bolt to
act as a keeper--it prevents the spring from falling apart when the bike is picked up, or, dare I
say it, airborne. :)
Finally, this pic shows some of the tools I worked with. Note the orange milk crates--
the left one contains my torch, a Bernzomatic model with an extension hose, which was
designed so that the tank could be worn on your belt, allowing some mobility. I felt
better having the tank on the ground, so I hooked the belt hook over the edge of the
crate. The right-hand milkcrate is turned upside-down, and a small vise is bolted to
the bottom corner, with a couple of wooden reinforcement plates. This was my 'filing
seat', and even though I didn't have a proper work bench, it allowed me to clamp tubes and
cut or file the ends of them. On the ground next to the crates are my files, wire
brushes, sandpaper for prepping metal for brazing, and my el-cheapo hacksaw. Oh,
and between the crates is my pair of heavy leather $5 welding gloves.
Random Info
The following is pretty much all of the information I've received via
email or from newsgroups (rec.crafts.metalworking, rec.bicycles.tech) on
the subject of brazing and framebuilding. Someday, I hope to actually organize
it!
Note: This section is highly under construction!
Article 73225 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: dlearl@aol.com (D L EARL)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re:Brass or Silver
Date: 21 Feb 1996 14:53:56 -0500
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Silver melt temp is considerably lower, therefore better from standpoint
of heat damage to the tubes. Silver generally will not fill big gaps, that
is why brass still often used with dropouts. Silver is only way to braze
certain tubesets that will not tolerate heat required for brass (Reynolds
753 for example)
Article 73871 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: brazing & burning paint
Date: 28 Feb 1996 22:04:19 GMT
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics
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Breathing paint fumes is always a bad idea. That said you
probably won't do too much dammage to yourself if you
have a decent breeze and stand upwind. Try to remove the
paint in a large area around the lugs before you try to
melt down the joints.
Also the brazing material may be very different (particularly if it is
a cheep bike) from what you will be using so this may not be the best
practice. I'd recommend just getting some pieces of metal and try
brazing them together. If you can get two steel tubes that telescope
together with fairly close tolorances that would be ideal. If you
can't try a 1-1/16 inch and one inch bike tube. Cut a ring off
the end of the 1-1/16 tube and then cut a section off of it along the axis
and bend it so that it is fairly snug on the 1 inch tube.
James W Gourgoutis (skoop+@pitt.edu) wrote:
: Okay...probably a stupid question, but I just want to be safe. I'm in
: the process of learning how to braze, just got my torch last week, and
: I'm going to start by melting down a frame or two into tubes and lugs to
: get a feel for how the torch works. What I want to know is this: if I
: do this outdoors (i.e. fairly well-ventilated area), am I in any danger
: of harmful vapors from the burning paint?
: I spent a long time sanding all the paint off the frame I *want* to
: evenutally braze on...I'd rather not also have to remove the paint on my
: practice frames!
: Thanks for any info.
: -Jim
: . . . .
: James Gourgoutis [http://www.pitt.edu/~skoop](412.683.7654)
--
_____________________________________________________________
Gregory S. Lewis | Phone: (512) 471-3105
Center for Nonlinear Dynamics | FAX: (512) 471-1558
University of Texas at Austin | e-mail:
Austin, TX 78712 USA | lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu
|
____________________________________________________________
Article 75443 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: lapdog@wco.com (Gary Helfrich)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: need more help/info w/brazing
Date: 15 Mar 1996 15:34:02 GMT
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James W Gourgoutis (skoop+@pitt.edu) wrote:
: While brazing, I try to avoid going this 'bright'/hot. The weird thing
: is this: I'm using goggles with a grade 5 lens in them...they basically
: make the world look dark green. I took them off before a joint had
: completely cooled down, and though it looked normal/black through the
: goggles, I was surprised to find that it was still quite red. So, I'm
: thinking that the orange I'm seeing through the goggles is actually alot
: hotter, and therefore my whole color perception is off, and I'm really
: cooking my tubes!
You might try to find OmniView replacement lenses for you goggles. (They
are made by Gentex Optics, Inc., Carbondale, PA 18407) These lenses use
a thin gold film rather than the "Sea Hunt" green which is more common.
The gold lens has almost effect on the percieved color. I have only been
able to get the lens in the 4"x5" flat plate version, but they are
plastic, so you can just cut some round lenses for yourself.
: What do other people wear/use/recommend while brazing? My torch's
: instructions say to wear nothing lighter than a grade 5 lens. The AWS
: handbook says "Goggles or Spectacles may be worn depending on the type of
: brazing" (or something to that effect). Talbot, in the photos in his
: book, is wearing ordinary eyeglasses with no gloves or anything.
5 is a bit dark. Brazing does not produce the huge UV output that arc
welding does, so you can relax a bit about eye damage. I'd go with a 3
for general frame construction, but if you use a gas fluxer, you might
want to use a 4.
You need some protection from the glare of the flame. Wear gloves as
well. Once you get used to them, you won't know that you have them on.
You need your hands as much as your eyes to build a frame.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Article 75456 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: ed380@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (J. Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Framebuilding with silver or brass?
Date: 15 Mar 1996 23:26:42 GMT
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In a previous article, skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis) says:
>The rod I ended up using for this joint was Bernz-o-matic NS-3 or
>something like that. It's supposedly a Nickel-Silver alloy, and is flux
>coated (blue in color).
I always thought that 'nickel-silver' contained NO
silver in the alloy. I'm sure there's a bunch of
welders out there who know the real answer.
Article 20250 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: jdc6@Lehigh.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: What filler rod to use for fillet brazing?
Date: 25 Nov 1995 11:27:39 -0500
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In article <48vifp$1eb@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgo
utis) writes:
>I want to do some fillet brazing on a bike frame in the near future.
>What kind/type of filler rod should I use? If someone could give me %
>composition of the components, that'd be great...or any other info.
>I've spent the past month researching different types of silver wire,
>only to find that I need to use brass wire for fillets. (I thought that I
>just needed silver wire with a low silver content, but was recently told
>that this is incorrect.)
>
>Please respond via email.
>
>Thanks!
>-Jim
>. . . .
>James Gourgoutis [http://www.pitt.edu/~skoop](412.683.7654)
>
Jim, look for some Eutectic 16 or Allstate 11, If you want a flux coated rod
it will be 16FC or 11FC. I've used them both with good results for formula car
frame repair.
Good Luck,
John
*******************************************************************************
* John Caffrey * Protoform Formula Vee *
* Engineering Technician * Rotus/Ford Super Seven *
* Dept. of Chemical Engineering * *
* Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA * *
*******************************************************************************
Article 23319 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: frisbie@flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Welding with propane?
Message-ID: <1996Feb1.093124.769@flying-disk.com>
Date: 1 Feb 96 09:31:23 PST
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In article <4eotmk$ptq@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>,
cclau@bmers2dd.bnr.ca (Christopher Lau) writes:
> : You can use propane-air for silver brazing brass if the piece is small
> : enough. That works, but I prefer to use MAPP gas and air for that.
> ^^^^
> This has been bugging me for ages.. what the @#$^%! does MAPP mean anyways?
MAPP is a registered trademark for the stabilized liquefied
mixture of methylacetylene (CH3:C:CH) and propadiene (CH2:C:CH2)
gases. It is one of approximately 26 methylacetylene-propadiene
(MPS) gases marketed.
I am not an expert in any area of welding, but I do have
a textbook. To quote from "Welding Principles and Applications":
"Oxy MAPP combusts with a high-heat, high-temperature flame what
works well for cuting, heating, brazing, and metallizing.
The gases mixed to produce MAPP both have the same atomic
composition. This means that three carbon and four hydrogen
atoms are present in each molecule of gas. Molecules of each
gas therefore have the same mass and size, even though they are
shaped differently. Because they are the same mass and size,
the gas molecules form a stable mixture that remains uniformly
mixed in the cylinder. This stabilization of mixture assures a
uniform and consistent flame for easier quality control.
Oxy MAPP produces a neutral flame temperature of 5,301 degrees F
(2,927 C) that yields a heat value of 517 Btu/cubic foot in the
primary flame (vs 507 for acetylene) and 1,889 Btu/cubic foot in
the secondary flame (vs 963 for acetylene). The total heat
value is 2,406 Btu/cubic foot (1470 for acetylene). The
difference between the temperature produced by a neutral
oxyacetylene flame and a neutral oxy MAPP flame is only 288
degrees F. Both flames are well above the approximately 2,800
degrees F temperature required to melt mild steel.
Although MAPP is not normally recommended for use in gas welding,
it can be used sucessfully. because the secondary flame of MAPP
produces almost twice the heat of the acetylene flame, distortion
is more of a problem with MAPP than with actylene. Also, it is
more difficult to melt the root of the joint using MAPP. Because
of the higher heat, the sides of a T-joint melt first. This is
not as much of a problem with other joint designs.
All gases used as alternatives to acetylene are safer to use,
store, and handle. MAPP has each one of the safety features of
the other fuel gases. These safety features include shock
stability, narrow explosive limits in air, no pressure
limitation, and slow burning velocities. Another safety
advantage of MAPP is its smell. The odor of MAPP can be
detected when there is as little as 100 parts per million of the
gas of 1/340 of its lower explosive limit in air. By law,
propane, natural gass, and propylene must have an odor added to
them so that they can be detected at a concentration of 1/15 of
their lower explosive limit in air. The ability to detect even
small leaks can save gas and avoide the possibility of
explostions. The foul odor of MAPP allows leaks to be found
more than twenty-two times faster than acetylene leaks can be
found."
I know this more than you asked, but one I started typing, I
couldn't stop. :-)
> I've been using propylene (+oxygen) in my torch, is this the
> same as MAPP??
No, but its heat and temperature characteristics are similar.
The book doesn't give any more details on propylene.
-- Alan E. Frisbie Frisbie@Flying-Disk.Com
-- Flying Disk Systems, Inc.
-- 4759 Round Top Drive (213) 256-2575 (voice)
-- Los Angeles, CA 90065 (213) 258-3585 (FAX)
Article 23633 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: "John R. Johnson"
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Welding with propane?
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:50:57 -0600
Organization: Southern Illinois University - Carbondale
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An oxidizing flame has excess oxygen. The excess oxygen will combine with
the metal you are heating. We call it corrosion.
A nuetral flame has exactly the right mixture of gasses so that they are
both consumed completely. There is neither excess oxygen or excess
acetylene.
A reducing flame has excess acetylene. This can pull oxygen from the hot
metal to combine with the acetylene. It can literally "unrust" the
hot metal. I usually leave a slight feather ( reducing ) on my flame
when I am welding something rusty.
John
On 7 Feb 1996, James W Gourgoutis wrote:
> In article <3110bd24.324080505@news.demon.co.uk>,
> Andy Dingley wrote:
>
> >really oxidisng flame and so you're burning your way through the steel
>
>
> This is most likely a really basic question, but can somebody describe
> the differences between an oxidizing, neutral, and reducing flame? I've
> seen the terms alot recently, but haven't found any definitions.
>
> Thanks,
> -Jim
> . . . .
> James Gourgoutis [http://www.pitt.edu/~skoop](412.683.7654)
>
>
>
>
Article 23651 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: ke4zv@radio.org
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Welding with propane?
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 14:58:35 PDT
Organization: TAC, The Atlanta Connection and Radio.Org
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In Article<4faf2j$m8b@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, writes:
> This is most likely a really basic question, but can somebody describe
> the differences between an oxidizing, neutral, and reducing flame? I've
> seen the terms alot recently, but haven't found any definitions.
Ok, it's really simple. An oxidizing flame has an excess of oxygen,
a reducing flame has a shortage of oxygen, and a neutral flame has
a perfect amount of oxygen to be totally consumed by the supplied
fuel.
Since an oxidizing flame has an excess of *really* hot oxygen available,
it will *oxidize* materials in the flame, such as your hunk of iron.
When oxidation occurs slowly on iron, we call it rust, when it occurs
rapidly, we call it burning. A cutting flame has a strong excess of
oxygen that literally burns the iron in its path.
A reducing flame has a dearth of oxygen in it. It has hot fuel hungry
for oxygen present and this fuel can *draw* oxygen out of materials
being heated by the flame. It is thus said to "reduce" the material.
With torch flames, the excess fuel is usually carbon, and some of this
carbon can combine with iron to form a hard *case* on the surface of
the material. This is how flame hardening is done.
A neutral flame is used for general heating, welding, soldering, or brazing.
It is the hottest flame that doesn't consume the material it is heating.
It's hard to describe how to adjust a torch to achieve each of these
types of flames, but it is very easy to demonstrate. The look and
*sound* of each of these flame types is very distinctive. Reducing
flames are "soft" with a large feathery outer cone surrounding
a smaller central cone. Oxidizing flames are harsh sounding with sharp
cones that stand off from the torch. A neutral flame has a single well
defined cone of flame. It is adjusted from a reducing flame by just
adding enough oxygen to merge the outer feathery cone with the small
central cone of the flame. This is the type of flame you'll use most
often.
Gary
Article 70673 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: bobaxe@aol.com (Bobaxe)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Low temp fillet brazing
Date: 25 Jan 1996 11:41:17 -0500
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Can anyone comment on alternatives to the high temp standard low fuming
bronze alloys. These typically have a liquidus around 1700 degrees. I've
been told that a moderate silver content (25%) alloy can be used for
fillet brazing while providing the benefit of a liquidus around 1250
degrees and a reasonably wide plastic range. While I don't doubt such an
alloy exists and that one could build at least a small fillet using it, I
don't know how to evaluate the strength of the resulting joint. Is the
reduced heating of the tube a virtue with no drawbacks. If so. why do all
the pros use bronze (surely the braze alloy cost is small compared to the
other ingredients in a $1000+ frame)? Thanks for any guidance.
Sincerely, Bob
Article 70800 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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Date: 26 Jan 1996 00:00:00 +0000
From: hajo@quijote.in-berlin.de (Hans-Joachim Zierke)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
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Subject: Re: Low temp fillet brazing
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Bobaxe writes:
> Can anyone comment on alternatives to the high temp standard low fuming
> bronze alloys. These typically have a liquidus around 1700 degrees. I've
> been told that a moderate silver content (25%) alloy can be used for
> fillet brazing while providing the benefit of a liquidus around 1250
> degrees and a reasonably wide plastic range.
It is possible to braze it at 610 degrees with 40% silver, and at 650
degrees with 56% silver cadmium-free.
Both setups need so tight a tolerance in tube metering, that you might not
want to pay for it. It might get economical with high-precision laser
cutting equipment getting cheaper.
> If so. why do all
> the pros use bronze (surely the braze alloy cost is small compared to the
> other ingredients in a $1000+ frame)? Thanks for any guidance.
All the pros use either 40% or 56% silver in _lugged_ frames, at least
those pros whos frames I might buy. In lugless construction, many builders
use high strength alloys with some nickel content. The damage to the tube
is a function of heat and time. Since lugless needs much less time to heat
up for brazing, this can be a good compromise of strength versus costs.
hajo
--
T . E . L . E . K . O . M
We specialize in cross subsidization
Private Customer Shafting Government Staff Grafting
Article 70766 of rec.bicycles.tech:
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
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From: bd427@freenet.buffalo.edu (Doug Milliken)
Subject: Re: Low temp fillet brazing
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References: <4e8brd$c65@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:30:49 GMT
Lines: 23
In a previous article, bobaxe@aol.com (Bobaxe) says:
>Can anyone comment on alternatives to the high temp standard low fuming
>bronze alloys. These typically have a liquidus around 1700 degrees. I've
>been told that a moderate silver content (25%) alloy can be used for
>fillet brazing while providing the benefit of a liquidus around 1250
>degrees and a reasonably wide plastic range. While I don't doubt such an
>alloy exists and that one could build at least a small fillet using it, I
>don't know how to evaluate the strength of the resulting joint. Is the
>reduced heating of the tube a virtue with no drawbacks. If so. why do all
>the pros use bronze (surely the braze alloy cost is small compared to the
>other ingredients in a $1000+ frame)? Thanks for any guidance.
I know at least one bike mfr that uses a brazing alloy that is about
one-half silver -- to fillet-braze stainless steel. I believe that this
alloy was chosen for its color match to the stainless as much as for the
low temperature. Results are good, but the one guy in the shop that can do
it is pretty d*** good at his craft.
I tried and didn't get anything like a good looking fillet -- even
though I'm pretty good with a normal brass rod.
--
Article 70796 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: josh@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Low temp fillet brazing
Date: 26 Jan 1996 18:17:16 GMT
Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C.
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In bd427@freenet.buffalo.edu (Doug Milliken) writes:
>I know at least one bike mfr that uses a brazing alloy that is about
>one-half silver -- to fillet-braze stainless steel. I believe that this
>alloy was chosen for its color match to the stainless as much as for the
>low temperature.
Silver brazing is usually recommended for stainless steel.
Brass can cause cracking, but I don't remember why. Henry
James Bicycles recommends brazing their dropouts with
silver solder with gap filling capability, and supplies
BAg24 (50% Ag, 2% Ni) filler with them. I don't fillet braze,
so I don't know if this would work for that.
--
Josh@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
New & used bike parts for sale: finger Joshua_Putnam@WolfeNet.com for list.
Suntour PowerFlo 7-sp freewheel, 13x28, new, $26 + postage
Article 70834 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: bikenbear@aol.com (BikeNbear)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Low temp fillet brazing
Date: 26 Jan 1996 21:52:33 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Use the bronze rod that Henry James sells. The Gasflux Company did some
development work on it and rumor has it that Trek also had a hand in
developing the alloy along with Mike Melton who did some work on some
Olympic bikes. This is proven stuff for fillet brazed frames and is the
only rod I use and I personally fillet brazed about 500 Tesch frames and
Dave Tesch probably brazed another 200 frames with the same type of rod.
If you have cracking problems 2 inches from the head tube- down tube
joint, its not as a result of fillet brazing. We never had any problems
with cracking. The old Fisher mountain bike team frames were all fillet
brazed back in the days when Joe Murray was racing and they never had
frame failures that could be in any way be associated with fillet brazing.
Leo Castellon
Article 70852 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: Racesales@Bushido.com (WJT)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Low temp fillet brazing
Date: 27 Jan 1996 07:31:46 GMT
Organization: Bushido Racing
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>If you have cracking problems 2 inches from the head tube- down tube
>joint, its not as a result of fillet brazing. We never had any problems
>with cracking. The old Fisher mountain bike team frames were all fillet
>brazed back in the days when Joe Murray was racing and they never had
>frame failures that could be in any way be associated with fillet brazing.
Leo,
We sent back at least 6 brazed frames for that very reason. They were eventually
warrantied. Localized fatigue from the heat band. Very common in aluminum construction too.
-Bill
Article 70755 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: Racesales@Bushido.com (WJT)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Low temp fillet brazing
Date: 26 Jan 1996 12:42:51 GMT
Organization: Bushido Racing
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>Can anyone comment on alternatives to the high temp standard low fuming
>bronze alloys. These typically have a liquidus around 1700 degrees.
>don't know how to evaluate the strength of the resulting joint. Is the
>reduced heating of the tube a virtue with no drawbacks.
Bob,
Fillet brazed frames are pretty. But it kills the tubing. Examine the warranty those
pros offer. Low temp brass is still heated to 1500+F and chrome-moly really, really likes to stay
under 1100F to retain it's normalized strength. Silver soldered lugged frames are easy to weld
at 900F and the tubes love it. Reynolds tubing, other than 753+, like the higher heats that
brazing requires, but not over large areas.
If you must fillet (without a bondo joint under the paint), expect about a years
lifespan under fairly harsh conditions. The tubing will crack on the downtube 2" from the
headtube, and at either end of the seat tube within 1" of the welds.
If you use a JetFluxer with high silver content filler you can keep the heat to 1000F or
so. The frame will be pretty, but the joints will have zero strength. Art has it drawbacks. -Bill
Article 71025 of rec.bicycles.tech:
Path: newsfeed.pitt.edu!skoop
From: skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Low temp fillet brazing
Date: 29 Jan 1996 17:26:24 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 16
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In article <4ec41j$e0u@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
BikeNbear wrote:
>Use the bronze rod that Henry James sells. The Gasflux Company did some
Does anyone know the AWS designation for this type of rod? Or for the
aforementioned "low fuming bronze rod", for that matter?
p.s. glad to see this thread--it's answering some questions I've had for
a long time. Thanks.
-Jim
. . . .
James Gourgoutis [http://www.pitt.edu/~skoop](412.683.7654)
Article 71157 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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Date: 30 Jan 1996 00:00:00 +0000
From: hajo@quijote.in-berlin.de (Hans-Joachim Zierke)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <61sBJMj$YgB@quijote.in-berlin.de>
References: <4e8brd$c65@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4eai8b$7q8@news.cerf.net>
Subject: Re: Low temp fillet brazing
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WJT writes:
> Fillet brazed frames are pretty. But it kills the tubing. Examine
> the wa those
> pros offer. Low temp brass is still heated to 1500+F and chrome-moly really,
> really likes to stay
> under 1100F to retain it's normalized strength. Silver soldered lugged frames
> are easy to weld
> at 900F and the tubes love it. Reynolds tubing, other than 753+, like the
> higher heats that
> brazing requires, but not over large areas.
As soon as you look at strength graphs after brass brazing, you'll see that
Reynolds 531 does not "love" it. Even with hand-held silver brazing, you'll
see the heated area on the graph, though it is very near to invisible.
hajo
--
T . E . L . E . K . O . M
We specialize in cross subsidization
Private Customer Shafting Government Staff Grafting
Article 17022 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
Path: newsfeed.pitt.edu!skoop
From: skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 6 Sep 1995 14:30:21 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
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Summary: which should I use?
This is my first post to this group after lurking for a couple of weeks,
so please forgive me in advance if I break any netiquette rules.
Myself and 2 friends want to build/modify bicycle frames. We do not know
much about welding and/or brazing, and would like to buy some basic
equipment and a book or two and learn by doing. We have been
researching what type of equipment (TIG, MIG, or OA brazing) to buy for
the past month, but have received differing opinions, which is why I'm
asking here.
For those who may not know, steel bicycle frames are generally fabricated
by 3 different methods: TIG welding, lugged OA brazing, or lugless
OA fillet brazing.
We have only a small budget (~$500). Our initial plan was to purchase a
small portable 110V MIG welder (as has been discussed several times here),
but several people I have talked to via email (from other newsgroups) have
indicated that MIG welding will not work well on the thin wall chromoly and
mild steel tubes used in bike frames (0.9 mm, for
example). For this reason we have also begun considering getting an OA
brazing rig instead. I have also been given the impression that small,
portable TIG units are WAY out of our budget ($4500 ?) and are hard to
learn--is this true?
We don't really need/want something that will give us professional results.
We just want to be weekend bike hackers/framebuilders for fun and experience.
I've checked the FAQ, but these questions still remain:
Which should we choose: MIG or OA brazing (assuming that TIG is out of
our league)?
*Is* TIG out of our price range/knowledge level?
Is fillet brazing easier to learn than MIG welding?
Will MIG welding produce mechanically sound welds on thinwall steel tubing?
Do cheap portable TIG units exist?
Is this a ludicrous idea?
Any other advice will be extremely appreciated!
Thanks,
Jim
. . . .
James Gourgoutis [http://www.pitt.edu/~skoop]
Article 17031 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: hcs@hsan.loc.gov
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 6 Sep 1995 19:12:46 GMT
Organization: Library of Congress
Lines: 23
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In <42kb9t$faa@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis) writes:
>I have also been given the impression that small,
>portable TIG units are WAY out of our budget ($4500 ?) and are hard to
>learn--is this true?
Miller makes a small TIG welder--I think it's called the
Econo-TIG--that sells for around $1200. It would almost certainly
do what you want. I personally found TIG welding to be *very*
easy--FAR easier than I found MIG, which is usually touted as
being the simplest. (I also found oxyacetylene easy, easier than
stick or MIG). YMMV.
I suggest going to a welding supply shop in your area and
explaining what you want to do. They will know how to advise you.
You could also consult the American Welding Society.
These opinions are my own, not those of the Library of
Congress.
Howard Sanner
hcs@hsan.loc.gov
sanner@mail.loc.gov
Article 17037 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
Path: newsfeed.pitt.edu!skoop
From: skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 6 Sep 1995 20:52:35 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
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It's just me following up my own post. I forgot to ask...
Also, what about regular stick-arc welding for bike frames? Totally out
of the question?
MANY thanks to everyone who's responded already!
Jim
. . . .
James Gourgoutis [http://www.pitt.edu/~skoop]
Article 17044 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: shoppa@schedir.krl.caltech.edu (Tim Shoppa)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 6 Sep 1995 22:28:19 GMT
Organization: Kellogg Radiation Lab, Caltech
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In article <42kb9t$faa@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
James W Gourgoutis wrote:
>This is my first post to this group after lurking for a couple of weeks,
>so please forgive me in advance if I break any netiquette rules.
>
>Myself and 2 friends want to build/modify bicycle frames. We do not know
>much about welding and/or brazing, and would like to buy some basic
>equipment and a book or two and learn by doing. We have been
>researching what type of equipment (TIG, MIG, or OA brazing) to buy for
>the past month, but have received differing opinions, which is why I'm
>asking here.
>
>We have only a small budget (~$500). Our initial plan was to purchase a
>small portable 110V MIG welder (as has been discussed several times here),
>but several people I have talked to via email (from other newsgroups) have
>indicated that MIG welding will not work well on the thin wall chromoly and
>mild steel tubes used in bike frames (0.9 mm, for
>example). For this reason we have also begun considering getting an OA
>brazing rig instead. I have also been given the impression that small,
>portable TIG units are WAY out of our budget ($4500 ?) and are hard to
>learn--is this true?
>
>We don't really need/want something that will give us professional results.
>We just want to be weekend bike hackers/framebuilders for fun and experience.
>
>I've checked the FAQ, but these questions still remain:
>
>Which should we choose: MIG or OA brazing (assuming that TIG is out of
>our league)?
I would say brazing. MIG is useful to know, but not nearly as
forgiving for beginners as oxyacetylene brazing. I would venture
to say that brazing is almost foolproof (meaning even I could
do a decent job after just a few practice joints).
I've even seen
some Oxyacetylene sets that allow you to use little "midget" cylinders
that are refillable; for work like you'll be doing such a setup
would be ideal.
>Is fillet brazing easier to learn than MIG welding?
I would say so. And an Oxyacetylene torch is a useful tool for
more than just welding, you know.
>Is this a ludicrous idea?
No, not at all. I've never built a frame from scratch, but I have
succesfully brazed frames back together after the original welds
failed. None of my repairs have broken yet!
If you're going to be building frames from scratch, I imagine you'd
also want to spend some money on some good material for forming
the tubing. Actually making the joint is usually rather easy; getting
your materials to nicely meet each other is the hard part. (This
is from my experience with totally replacing the exhaust system
of a '73 Pontiac LeMans; having the right tools to work with the
tubing can turn a dirty job that takes two days and leaves every joint
in your body sore into a quick job that is very neatly done.)
Tim. (shoppa@altair.krl.caltech.edu)
Article 17050 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 95 20:20:36 CDT
Organization: C.C.S.O.
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In article <42l7a3$266@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
shoppa@schedir.krl.caltech.edu (Tim Shoppa) writes:
>
>I would say brazing. MIG is useful to know, but not nearly as
>forgiving for beginners as oxyacetylene brazing. I would venture
>to say that brazing is almost foolproof (meaning even I could
>do a decent job after just a few practice joints).
>
My sentiments exactly. I picked up brazing easily, and have
used it extensively (including making a tandem bike frame and
a "kiddie" crank adapter so that my daughter can ride on our
triplet.) A few years ago, I got a welder and a TIG attchment;
it cost about $600 total, works great on stainless tubing, but
is only DC and thus won't do aluminum. The problem with TIG
(or MIG, and ESPECIALLY stick) welding of thin material is how
easily you can burn through it and leave a big gaping hole;
brazing is done at a temperture below the melting point of the
materials you are joining and thus you don't have the same
problem. Also, if you want a really pretty joint, a brass
fillet--in my experience--is smoother than anything I've seen
with welding (and if its not perfect, brass files/sands very
nicely.
>I've even seen
>some Oxyacetylene sets that allow you to use little "midget" cylinders
>that are refillable; for work like you'll be doing such a setup
>would be ideal.
>
I've done all my brazing with a 20 year old Sears Oxy/Mapp gas
setup; the Oxy bottle is refillable, and the Mapp cylinders are
disposable. A bicycle frame takes less than one of each.
Article 17053 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: ernieleim@aol.com (ErnieLeim)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 6 Sep 1995 22:18:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Brazing, Mig, or tig, for bike frames ?
I own all three of the options you list ( yes stick is out of the
question).
Oxy-acet. is the best low-cost option. I would be leery of trying to use a
baby mig to weld bike tubes since it is very easy to over heat the weld
and burn through on such thin materiel. Tig is an option if you have about
$1500 to spend on a Miller Econotig. They are great machines for small
projects such as bike frames. I've had mine for a year and a half and
wouldn't give it up for anything( well maybe a Cybertig) .
Over all I feel you should either get to know someone who can let you play
with the equipment before you buy it , or best of all enroll in welding
classes at your local community college. Taking actual classes can also
give you a much better idea of how welding works, which type of welding to
use when , and what is good equipment.
Good luck on your bike frames.
@---------------------------------------------------------@
Ernie Leimkuhler
Stagesmith Productions
Custom Metal Fabrication
* ABANA SCA AWS USITT IATSE local 15, 488 *
Renton, WA
*"For this was a time when men were REAL men, women were REAL women and
small furry creatures from alpha centauri were REAL small furry creatures
from alpha centauri." --- Douglas Adams *
@---------------------------------------------------------@
Article 17078 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: hr@nwlink.com (Rich S)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 7 Sep 1995 17:46:36 GMT
Organization: Northwest Link
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You could take the ultra-cheap TIG route (like I did). If you have or
can get a arc welding set that is DC capable you can add a TIG torch, tungsten
electrodes, regulators and usundrie for around $250 extra. It dosen't have a
high frequency unit so you can't weld aluminum and striking an arc is a
pain--you have to use a carbon or copper plate to avoid contaminating the
electrode.
The HPBook Welder's Handbook by Richard Finch and Tom Monroe is pretty
informative and discribes the above mentioned setup.
Sincerly;
Rich S
Article 17053 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: ernieleim@aol.com (ErnieLeim)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 6 Sep 1995 22:18:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Brazing, Mig, or tig, for bike frames ?
I own all three of the options you list ( yes stick is out of the
question).
Oxy-acet. is the best low-cost option. I would be leery of trying to use a
baby mig to weld bike tubes since it is very easy to over heat the weld
and burn through on such thin materiel. Tig is an option if you have about
$1500 to spend on a Miller Econotig. They are great machines for small
projects such as bike frames. I've had mine for a year and a half and
wouldn't give it up for anything( well maybe a Cybertig) .
Over all I feel you should either get to know someone who can let you play
with the equipment before you buy it , or best of all enroll in welding
classes at your local community college. Taking actual classes can also
give you a much better idea of how welding works, which type of welding to
use when , and what is good equipment.
Good luck on your bike frames.
@---------------------------------------------------------@
Ernie Leimkuhler
Stagesmith Productions
Custom Metal Fabrication
* ABANA SCA AWS USITT IATSE local 15, 488 *
Renton, WA
*"For this was a time when men were REAL men, women were REAL women and
small furry creatures from alpha centauri were REAL small furry creatures
from alpha centauri." --- Douglas Adams *
@---------------------------------------------------------@
Article 17097 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: glbwelding@aol.com (GLBWELDING)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 7 Sep 1995 22:41:47 -0400
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My company deals in oxyacetylene welding equipment and deals with
primarily people welding 4130 thin wall tubing call at 1-800-258-0126 for
more
info on this subject.
Article 17091 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: kimberln@crl.com (J. Kimberlin)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 7 Sep 1995 16:39:37 -0700
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In article <42n3n2$ntl@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
James W Gourgoutis wrote:
>
>Someone mentioned that you can get a brazing-torch set-up consisting of
>JUST an acetylene tank, without an oxygen tank. This is attractive due
>to the lower cost, etc. What are the relative merits/problems with each
>(OA vs. just A)?
You have a lot of advice and all good. Just to throw additional fodder
in on the subject of heat and brazing, I have used ordinary house gas
(methane) with air as preheat, ordinary house gas plus oxygen, propane
with compressed air, and propane with oxygen.
Generally, I like propane oxygen for a brazing flame with a propane-air
burner heater for soaking heat. This is for brazing not silver
soldering, just to get the terminology straight.
Ordinary house gas and air is hot enough for general glass blowing
(pyrex). Quartz takes a little more heat and we use oxygen and house gas
for that.
My personal prejudice says stay away from acetylene as it is costly and
makes soot. The soot hangs in the cobwebs I never clean away in the shop
and this eventually gets into my hair, etc. The idea really is to obtain
the amount of heat you need to do the job, consistant with cost, time,
and capability.
JerryK
Article 17083 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: Dirc Evans <100666.1106@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 7 Sep 1995 19:28:09 GMT
Organization: Metal Workx
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References: <42l7a3$266@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
The case for different methods of repair/ building bike frames is
very much dependent on the frame material.
Briefly, the superlight steel frames are made from precise
heat treated alloys. Welding has to unwanted effects: It adds
extra weight with filler but the main reason is that welding
takes the alloy beyond a certain temperature at which the alloy
loses its strength and becomes extremely brittle.
Other frame materials, such as Titanium and aluminium can be
successfully TIG welded, but often require special heat
treatments. There is however a recent development in a tubing
that does not need the treatment.
As for bonding and fibre matrix materials, adhesives are very
specialised.
That just leaves the High Tensile Steel tubing on common or
garden bikes. You might as well MIG this stuff.
To be honest, there is a hell of a lot to know about frame
building and repair and I would hate to see anyone lose a load of
money through lack of knowledge.
Good luck!
Article 17144 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: josh@Wolfe.NET (Joshua_Putnam)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 9 Sep 1995 20:54:47 GMT
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In <1995Sep8.222936.4295@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> markl@ssd.comm.mot.com (Mark Lakomski) writes:
>Brazing IMO will not work. The only brazing I've ever seen on a bicycle is on
>a lugged frame where the lugging provides most of the strength. I would imagine
>making lugs would be too complex of an operation for what you propose. Brazing
>properly ( so as to obtain the advertised tensile rating of the material ) is
>not as easy as you might think, especially on thin tubing. A brazed tubing butt
>joint probably won't even support your own weight. You may be able to buy a set
>of lugs for a frame at which point this might be a very attractive alternative.
While lugs are the most common way of brazing a bike frame, they
aren't required, and don't actually provide much of the strength
of the joint. The main strength of the joint comes from properly
mitering the intersecting tubes to get very close tolerances.
Well-mitered joints will be close enough to allow silver brazing
at full strength, but this takes a lot of work. Less expensive
frames usually use brass brazing at looser tolerances.
Lugless, fillet-brazed frames are lighter and nearly as strong as
lugged frames, but much harder to build well both structurally
and aesthetically. Structurally because the main function of
lugs is to keep the tubes properly aligned while brazing, and
aesthetically because it takes a lot of practice to make those
beautifully smoothed fillets of brazing material around the joint
without spattering excess material around. Still, if you want to
spend the money you can buy a lugless brazed frame and not worry
about premature failure because of the lack of lugs. A lot of
old Schwinns were built this way and are still sound after many
decades; current professional builders make lugless tandems and
mountain bikes.
You can even get custom-configured stems made of fillet brazed
4130 tubing, and it's hard to think of a joint on a bike that
receives more stress than a stem quill. It's not unusual for
most of the riders weight to land on one side of a handlebar
giving 20cm of leverage against the stem, yet a simple mitered
brazed joint is easily strong enough to handle it. (All this
assumes competent brazing, of course.)
--
Josh@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
Article 17053 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: ernieleim@aol.com (ErnieLeim)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 6 Sep 1995 22:18:03 -0400
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Brazing, Mig, or tig, for bike frames ?
I own all three of the options you list ( yes stick is out of the
question).
Oxy-acet. is the best low-cost option. I would be leery of trying to use a
baby mig to weld bike tubes since it is very easy to over heat the weld
and burn through on such thin materiel. Tig is an option if you have about
$1500 to spend on a Miller Econotig. They are great machines for small
projects such as bike frames. I've had mine for a year and a half and
wouldn't give it up for anything( well maybe a Cybertig) .
Over all I feel you should either get to know someone who can let you play
with the equipment before you buy it , or best of all enroll in welding
classes at your local community college. Taking actual classes can also
give you a much better idea of how welding works, which type of welding to
use when , and what is good equipment.
Good luck on your bike frames.
@---------------------------------------------------------@
Ernie Leimkuhler
Stagesmith Productions
Custom Metal Fabrication
* ABANA SCA AWS USITT IATSE local 15, 488 *
Renton, WA
*"For this was a time when men were REAL men, women were REAL women and
small furry creatures from alpha centauri were REAL small furry creatures
from alpha centauri." --- Douglas Adams *
@---------------------------------------------------------@
Article 17165 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: neidorff@uicc.com (Bob Neidorff)
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 02:12:55 GMT
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James W Gourgoutis (skoop+@pitt.edu) wrote:
: Myself and 2 friends want to build/modify bicycle frames.
I can't answer many questions for you, but I can give some advice.
Get either or both of the following books:
The Paterek Manual for Bicycle Framebuilders by Tim Paterek
Published by Frame Builder' Guild, Rt. 2, Box 234, River Falls, WI 54022
Designing and Building Your Own Frameset
An Illustrated Guide For Teh Amateur Bicycle Builder
Richard P. Talbot, PE
(C) 1984 ISBN 0-9602418-3-3
The Paterek book is looseleaf form, so not as easy to get, but,
in my opinion, better.
--
Bob Neidorff; Unitrode Corporation | Internet: neidorff@uicc.com
7 Continental Blvd. | Voice : (US) 603-429-8541
Merrimack, NH 03054-0399 USA | FAX : (US) 603-429-8564
Article 17127 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: markl@ssd.comm.mot.com (Mark Lakomski)
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Reply-To: markl@ssd.comm.mot.com
Organization: Motorola LMPS
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 22:29:36 GMT
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I don't consider myself an authority on the topic of welding, but
I've done a little of each and am currently working on welding up an airframe
of thinwall chrome-moly tubing simular to what you may be using.
I am assuming you are using steel tubing (preferably something like 4130)
otherwise TIG is about the only real practical solution.
Brazing IMO will not work. The only brazing I've ever seen on a bicycle is on
a lugged frame where the lugging provides most of the strength. I would imagine
making lugs would be too complex of an operation for what you propose. Brazing
properly ( so as to obtain the advertised tensile rating of the material ) is
not as easy as you might think, especially on thin tubing. A brazed tubing butt
joint probably won't even support your own weight. You may be able to buy a set
of lugs for a frame at which point this might be a very attractive alternative.
MIG seems too uncontrollable for this type of work. You'll wind up blowing holes
through the tubes and wind up destroying a lot of stock. You might be able to get
a frame done eventually, but it would take a lot of skill, practice and some luck.
Stick arc on thin wall steel might be possible using tiny rods and reverse polarity
but I imagine it would be more difficult then getting MIG to work. I wouldn't even
attempt it.
TIG might be the ideal solution, especially if you go back and heat up the frame to
stress relieve the joints afterwards. The weld quality is excellent, the amount of
skill required is more than MIG or Gas, the equipment and filler rod is considerably more
expensive. The intense locatization of heat could have you blowing a lot of holes in the
tubing that would be difficult to fix with TIG. For a big investment and a lot of practice
you could produce some decent frames.
Easiest to learn and probably the most flexible and forgiving welding system is still
gas IMO. With a few hours of practice you could start putting together some acceptable
joints. Forget the real cheap solid fuel and propane/oxygen bottle units. I've tried
before and they don't put out enough heat for enough time to make a single joint properly
and there is little to no flame control to prevent you from either carburizing or oxidizing
the weld.
Overall, if your using some decent gauge tubing MIG might be the cheapest/easiest to try, as
long as you don't expect quality looking work. Best for the buck (pound/peso/lira/whatever...)
would be gas. Then MIG if you ever expect to get anything that looks professional. Any of these
will introduce distortion, which could make for a interesting frame. That's another reason
why brazed lugged frames are so common. (One less problem to deal with). I recall being able to
purchase frame lugs a few years back from a bike store. You might call around to some places
that offer custom frames and inquire. Also you might want to fit up the frame and just take it
to a welding shop. You may be suprised how many frames they can weld up for you for a lot less
than it would cost you to buy some marginal welding equipment. If you do decide to weld yourself
get some instruction. Self-taught welding is a real bad idea. You never know if you've got it
right, and chance are you will never find out by trial and error.
Good Luck,
Mark Lakomski
Hoffman Estates, IL
My opinions, not Motorola's.
Article 17875 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: ernieleim@aol.com (ErnieLeim)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Mig Welders-
Date: 1 Oct 1995 16:56:08 -0400
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Little Mig welders ?
It seems like I am saying the same thing about 12 times a year .
Considering how many people have asked the same question about baby mig
welders , I am surprised that there isn't more about them in the FAQ.
One more time ......
The best of all the baby migs are the Lincoln SP-125, Miller 130, and
Hobart Handler 120. All 3 are gas MIGs that can also run flux-core ( but
why would you want to if you don't have to ?). I own a Handler 120 and
have loved it for the last 3 years. I've welded Stainless, aluminum and
steel with it without a hitch, although the aluminum capability of all the
baby migs is pretty limited. For regular steel I use a 75 % argon / 25 %
CO2 mix , but if I need to do a bunch of stainless I swap my 75/25 bottle
in for a bottle of Helium-tri-mix. This gives hotter , cleaner welds on
stainless and as long as you own your tank it doesn't cost much to swap
out for a specific job and then swap back. Eventually I suppose I'll buy
another tank, but for now it doesn't seem worth it.
Flux-core is only recomended where a sheilding gas is likely to get blown
away , such as in-the-field repairs . It is considerably nastier and means
a lot of cleanup.
BTW instead of buying 10 lb. ($50 - $60) spools of stainless, I buy the
little 1.1 lb ($6 - $7 )spools made for spooler guns. This saves a bit of
money for small jobs, but if you are doing a lot of stainless, it is
cheaper per pound to buy the 10 lb spools.
Remeber to match you filler metal on stainless, other wise you can get
some funky welds. 308L SS filler wire is used for 304 SS. 316L SS filler
wire is used for 316 SS.
(The "L" stands for elevated temperature stable).
The Hobart, Lincoln , and Miller machines all run close to $500 for a
package .
I would stay away from the cheesier brands on principle allthough some
members of this newsgroup have bought them and been quite satisfied.
The problem is that the low end compamies tend to have probems with
waranty repairs and replacment parts. Where as the larger companies have
certified repair stations all over the country.
All these machines have similar max output amps and tend to max out on 1/4
inch plate steel. For thick sections just preheat to above 400 deg F.
Good luck with your choice.
@---------------------------------------------------------@
Ernie Leimkuhler
Stagesmith Productions
Custom Metal Fabrication
* ABANA SCA AWS USITT IATSE local 15, 488 *
Renton, WA
*"For this was a time when men were REAL men, women were REAL women and
small furry creatures from alpha centauri were REAL small furry creatures
from alpha centauri." --- Douglas Adams *
@---------------------------------------------------------@
Article 17888 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: binzel@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au (Martin Deeley)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Welding homepages
Date: 2 Oct 1995 17:05:13 +1000
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Check out http://www.binzel.com.au for good info on MIG TIG welding and
Plasma cutting.
Article 17984 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: MorseT@ncr.disa.mil (Tom Morse)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: More on MIG Welders
Date: 4 Oct 1995 11:44:12 GMT
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A couple of weeks ago I was talking to a welder-by-trade with Trane Air Conditioning in Tennessee.
He said they recently tested and evaluated several 110 volt MIG welders for use in the shop and in the field.
The result was that they felt the CENTURY 105/90 was the best all around unit and a good dollar value.
He was so impressed that he bought one for himself (after more than ten years of not having a welder at home).
The CENTURY 105/90 has 100% duty cycle on the 90 amp range and it comes with gas regulator.
It also uses a standard Tweco torch and can purchased for less than $500 from several sources.
Hope this helps,
T.O. Morse
MorseT@ncr.disa.mil
Article 18031 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: josh@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: MIG vs. brazing for bike frames
Date: 5 Oct 1995 13:30:11 GMT
Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C.
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In <44upqi$8ci@news1.svc> Mike Rehmus writes:
>While designing a boiler, I had occasion to question the
>strength of a silver-soldered joint. Looking at the
>container of Silvaloy brand of silver-solder, I discovered
>no statement about joint strength in the familiar 'psi'
>rating we see on most welding supplies.
Going on memory since I've misplaced the book, typical
silver brazing alloys used on bicycle frames have strengths
around 65-90 kpsi vs. around 50-70kpsi for brass. Part of
this is because of the tighter tolerances of silver brazed
joints -- silver flows into very tight joints better than
brass does, and tighter tolerances make for stronger
joints.
Looking at the one spec sheet I do have handy, Harris
Safety-Silv 1200 (BAg-7, 56% Ag 22% Cu 17% Zn 5% Sn) is
rated at 66kpsi. It's an excellent one for bicycle
construction because of its low liquidus, 1200F, and its
high ductility and elongation, which help avoid cracking
when joining thin tubes to stainless steel.
By comparison, typical post-brazing Reynolds 531 steel has
a yield stress of 80kpsi and a tensile strength of 90kpsi
according to the manufacturer. This means that a silver
brazed joint should be about as strong as the base material
for this type of tubing. Again, this assumes good
tolerances, which can't always be assumed with some
hand-crafted bicycle frames.
--
Josh@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
Article 74040 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: mgkepner@facstaff.wisc.edu (Melissa Kepner)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Framebuilding with silver or brass?
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 19:52:15 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, System Administration
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ericch@halcyon.com (EricCh) wrote:
>I'm curious about brazing for lugged steel frames. What is the
>material of choice these days, brass or silver?
I started out building with silver because it was "obvious" that there
would be less heat damage with the lower temperature that the silver
alloys flow at. Later, however, I was taught in the european
tradition of brass brazing and learned how to do this with minimum
oxidation. It may well be true that there is still greater damage to
the tubing when raised to brass temps, but I feel that this method
has been used successfully for decades, so it is really rather silly
to worry about it.
I am not a metalurgist, but I take much of what has been said about
heat damage on this newsgroup with a grain of salt. I believe that
the temperatures reached in brazing with either material are well
above that necessary to completely anneal any steel.
My experience is with 531 so I can't really comment on anything else.
It remains true that a silver brazed frame is much easier to repair
than one done in brass.
Jim
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Melissa Kepner Jim Adney
mgkepner@facstaff.wisc.edu jradney@njackn.com
Laura Kepner-Adney
Madison, Wisconsin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 74446 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: ericch@halcyon.com (EricCh)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Framebuilding with silver or brass?
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 20:38:39 GMT
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skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis) wrote:
>The rod I ended up using for this joint was Bernz-o-matic NS-3 or
>something like that. It's supposedly a Nickel-Silver alloy, and is flux
>coated (blue in color). I got it mainly to practice with. It's
>supposedly got a tensile strength of 80,000psi and the temp range is
>1250-1750 F...which seems like the same neighborhood as most silver
>filler is. (Most brass rod I've read about is up around ~1600 F or
>higher.) On the back of the package, it even lists 'bicycle repair' as
>a common application. I've discovered that flux-coated rod is kinda bad,
>since you don't really have any control over where the flux runs,
>therefore, you don't have as much control over where the filler metal flows.
>My next attempt will include scraping the flux off of the rod and using a
>seperate paste flux.
Sounds like you're paying quite a bit for this rod. Don't scrape the
flux off of it. Just go to a local welder and get some non-flux rod
to play with. You can get brass for about $4/lb, or 15% silver for
$15/lb.
As for not having any control over where the flux runs, don't worry
about it. The builder I worked with said "flux is your friend". Use
the paste and smear it all over everything. It will help keep the
metal from over heating. You control the flow of silver (or brass)
with the heat of the torch. It will flow to the heat. I, too, read
Talbot, and this contradicts what he says, but after trying it on a
few frames, it works very well. The extra flux is easy to clean off
with water and a wire brush.
Article 73879 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: jdt@vulcan.edsi.org
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Framebuilding with silver or brass?
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 03:25:00 GMT
Organization: Enterprise Data Sytems
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Distribution: world
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In <4gcp8d$moj@news.halcyon.com>, ericch@halcyon.com (EricCh) writes:
>I'm curious about brazing for lugged steel frames. What is the
>material of choice these days, brass or silver?
>I've checked with 2 local builders. One uses brass for everything.
>The other uses brass only on the dropouts, but says he's switching to
>brass everywhere due to failures in the silver brazed areas.
>Talbot's book recommends brass for dropouts and silver everywhere
>else.
>Paterek's book says use silver everywhere. He says builders use brass
>because silver is harder to use.
>I'd like to hear from some frame builders. Is there a prefered
>material, or is it more a matter of personal choice?
Silver requires closer tolerances and better preparation (and the
flux is much more irritating), but it requires less clean-up than
brass and is generally easier to work with. It's a lot easier to
replace tubes on a silver-brazed frame, also.
I've built with both (even done all-silver Reynolds 753 frames).
The biggest drawback of silver is the cost. Brass costs pennies
per frame, but silver adds up fast, especially doing dropouts...
-John (jdt@edsi.org)
Article 73867 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: philmix@eworld.com (PHILMIX)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Framebuilding with silver or brass?
Date: 28 Feb 1996 17:44:02 -0800
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Here's the deal.
Silver uses less heat than brass. I don't find it harder to use than
brass.
Brass costs much less than silver. Silver is $10 to $12 an ounce. Brass
runs about $7 a pound. The average frame used 2 to 2 1/2 oz. of brazing
material.
Silver cannot be used to fill voids or build up fillets.
All in all silver is the preferred material HOWEVER Reynolds has a new
tubing called 853 that must be brass brazed or TIG welded because it must
be brought up to a certain temp. to gain its proper strength.
Phil Brown
Article 73134 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: josh@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Reynolds 531 durability
Date: 20 Feb 1996 15:03:15 GMT
Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C.
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Message-ID: <4gcnrj$j66@news1.wolfe.net>
References: <4e8brd$c65@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31238345.57A6@atmos.washington.edu> <4g0grq$g3g@hermes.acs.unt.edu> <4g6cg0$con@news1.wolfe.net> <639bMouKYgB@quijote.in-berlin.d
e>
Reply-To: Josh@WolfeNET.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gonzo.wolfenet.com
In <639bMouKYgB@quijote.in-berlin.de> hajo@quijote.in-berlin.de (Hans-Joachim Zierke) writes:
>Joshua_Putnam writes:
>> In fact, 531 frames may well be more durable than Columbus
>> frames when poorly built, simply because the Reynolds steel
>> can stand overheating better than heat-treated Columbus
>> can. 531 can be brass brazed at over 1900F without
>> significant loss of strength,
>Hmmh... this must be a wonder material. I guess it wasn't created by
>engineers, but by salespeople.
>> while Colombus says not to go
>> over 1290F.
>Sounds like honest info.
It's not that Reynolds encourages going over normal brazing
temperatures, but that 531 isn't a heat treated alloy, so you're
not losing the added strength of heat treating. There definitely
is a loss of strength from overheating, just not as large a loss
as with heat-treated CrMo.
For 531 tubes, Reynolds suggests a maximum liquidus of 1700F.
For 753, they say not to go over 1290F, the same as for Columbus
heat-treated steels. They're ven more conservative on the rear
stays of 731, 653, and 708 tube sets, saying not to go over about
1200F.
On the other hand, for their 525 CrMo tube set, they say
temperatures of 2000F are acceptable.
--
Josh@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
New & used bike parts for sale: finger Joshua_Putnam@WolfeNet.com for list.
Article 53963 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: josh@Wolfe.NET (Joshua_Putnam)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Building your on bicycle frame
Date: 11 Jul 1995 17:22:14 GMT
Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C.
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In <3ts80a$pdr@fido.asd.sgi.com> Richard Hedges writes:
>I am interested in building my own bicycle frame. I would like
>to build a road bicycle.
>2. Are there any good reference materials?
Richard Talbot's book _Designing and Building Your Own Frameset:
An Illustrated Guide for the Amateur Bicycle Builder_, is an
excellent introduction to building your own lugged road frame.
Talbot himself was a novice when he began the project, and did
all the work at home with home-made jigs and minimal equipment,
so the book addresses many points that apply to the amateur but
not to the professional frame builder who can afford, for
example, a proper frame-tube mitering tool.
Any good bike shop should be able to order you a copy of the book
from United Bicycle Tool in Oregon, or you might find it at your
local library.
At a more advanced level, Tim Paterek's _The Paterek Manual_ goes
into even more detail about design, materials, and equipment.
It's also much more expensive. I'd suggest looking in your local
library, or asking a local frame builder if you can read his
copy.
>3. Are there any classes, which, as a part of the class, you would
> build your own frame?
Ti Cycles in Seattle offers such a class -- there's an excellent
writeup of it in the rec.bicycles.* archives (ftp address in the
FAQ).
>4. Where do you get tubing, lugs, dropouts, ...etc. ?
Talbot's book lists several sources, some out-of-date,
unfortunately. (When he wrote the book, Nashbar still sold frame
tubing, brazing supplies, and Nervex lugs!)
--
Josh@WOLFE.net is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
Bike parts for sale: finger Joshua_Putnam@gonzo.wolfe.net for list.
Article 54693 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: josh@Wolfe.NET (Joshua_Putnam)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Source of frame building materials
Date: 19 Jul 1995 15:30:19 GMT
Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C.
Lines: 32
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NNTP-Posting-Host: gonzo.wolfe.net
In <3uh9ld$sji@fido.asd.sgi.com> Richard Hedges writes:
>I am looking to build a road frame.
>Can anyone point me to sources of frame tubing, lugs, dropouts,
>and other miscellaneous parts?
You can get almost everything you need from Henry James
Bicycles, Inc. He's most famous for his beautiful and
distinctive fork crowns and stainless steel dropouts, but
his cast lugs are also top-quality and reasonably priced.
The company also distributes nine different models of True
Temper tubing, either in sets or by the piece. Also
brazing rod, frame and fork jigs, and books: both the
Paterek frame manual and Talbot's guide for amateur frame
builders. If you just want to build one frame for yourself,
I'd strongly recommend the Talbot book.
Henry James Bicycles, Inc
704 Elvira Ave.
Redondo Beach, CA 90277
310-540-1552 or fax 310-316-8202
Disclaimer: I have no relationship with Henry James
Bicycles other than >really appreciating the quality and
aesthetics of his >products.
--
Josh@WOLFE.net is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
Bike parts for sale: finger Joshua_Putnam@gonzo.wolfe.net for list.
Article 54664 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: templ002@cerritos.edu (TEMPLETON ROBERT M)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Source of frame building materials
Date: 18 Jul 95 21:22:44 PST
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
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In article <3uh9ld$sji@fido.asd.sgi.com>, Richard Hedges writes:
> I am looking to build a road frame.
>
> Can anyone point me to sources of frame tubing, lugs, dropouts,
> and other miscellaneous parts?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
A few sources that im familiar with is:
1. Cyclo-Pedia Inc.
PO Box 884
Adrian, MI 49221
2. The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works
114 Sawmill Rd.
Dillsburg, PA 17019
3. Gaerlan, Inc.
838 Grant Ave., Suite 410
San Francisco, CA 94108
Some of them charge a very small fee for their catalogs. Like a dollar or two.
Hope this helps.
Robby
Article 54693 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: josh@Wolfe.NET (Joshua_Putnam)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Source of frame building materials
Date: 19 Jul 1995 15:30:19 GMT
Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C.
Lines: 32
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NNTP-Posting-Host: gonzo.wolfe.net
In <3uh9ld$sji@fido.asd.sgi.com> Richard Hedges writes:
>I am looking to build a road frame.
>Can anyone point me to sources of frame tubing, lugs, dropouts,
>and other miscellaneous parts?
You can get almost everything you need from Henry James
Bicycles, Inc. He's most famous for his beautiful and
distinctive fork crowns and stainless steel dropouts, but
his cast lugs are also top-quality and reasonably priced.
The company also distributes nine different models of True
Temper tubing, either in sets or by the piece. Also
brazing rod, frame and fork jigs, and books: both the
Paterek frame manual and Talbot's guide for amateur frame
builders. If you just want to build one frame for yourself,
I'd strongly recommend the Talbot book.
Henry James Bicycles, Inc
704 Elvira Ave.
Redondo Beach, CA 90277
310-540-1552 or fax 310-316-8202
Disclaimer: I have no relationship with Henry James
Bicycles other than >really appreciating the quality and
aesthetics of his >products.
--
Josh@WOLFE.net is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
Bike parts for sale: finger Joshua_Putnam@gonzo.wolfe.net for list.
Article 54664 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: templ002@cerritos.edu (TEMPLETON ROBERT M)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Source of frame building materials
Date: 18 Jul 95 21:22:44 PST
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Lines: 27
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NNTP-Posting-Host: white.cerritos.edu
In article <3uh9ld$sji@fido.asd.sgi.com>, Richard Hedges writes:
> I am looking to build a road frame.
>
> Can anyone point me to sources of frame tubing, lugs, dropouts,
> and other miscellaneous parts?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
A few sources that im familiar with is:
1. Cyclo-Pedia Inc.
PO Box 884
Adrian, MI 49221
2. The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works
114 Sawmill Rd.
Dillsburg, PA 17019
3. Gaerlan, Inc.
838 Grant Ave., Suite 410
San Francisco, CA 94108
Some of them charge a very small fee for their catalogs. Like a dollar or two.
Hope this helps.
Robby
Article 57592 of rec.bicycles.tech:
Path: newsfeed.pitt.edu!skoop
From: skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: MIG vs. TIG--why???
Date: 22 Aug 1995 16:40:06 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
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I'm sure that this has been brought up before, but...
*Why* is TIG welding preferred over MIG welding for bike frames'n'such?
Myself and 2 friends are considering purchasing a small, portable MIG
welder to get our feet wet (i.e. learn how to weld), and eventually to
use on weekend bike projects, so I'm wondering...if you can't (or
shouldn't) weld bikes with MIG, then I guess we shouldn't even bother.
Is there even such a thing as a small, portable *TIG* welder?
As alway, any advice is appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim
. . . .
James Gourgoutis [http://www.pitt.edu/~skoop]
Graduate School of Mechanical Engineering ~~ ,o
University of Pittsburgh / Pittsburgh, PA ~~ -\<,
"Why am I so late? Couldn't decide which bike to ride!" ~~ ( )/( )
Article 57613 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: lapdog@crl.com (Gary Helfrich)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: MIG vs. TIG--why???
Date: 22 Aug 1995 12:49:07 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest]
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James W Gourgoutis (skoop+@pitt.edu) wrote:
: I'm sure that this has been brought up before, but...
: *Why* is TIG welding preferred over MIG welding for bike frames'n'such?
: Myself and 2 friends are considering purchasing a small, portable MIG
: welder to get our feet wet (i.e. learn how to weld), and eventually to
: use on weekend bike projects, so I'm wondering...if you can't (or
: shouldn't) weld bikes with MIG, then I guess we shouldn't even bother.
MIG welding is very difficult when sub 1mm material is involved as in
bike building. There is MIG equipment that can weld material this thin,
but you are looking at over $10K for the equipment and it is not very
portable. Even if you spent the money, you would find the equipment
impossible to manipulate through all the joints in the bike. There are
multi-process machines made by Powcon, and Miller. These machines will
allow you to run either MIG or TIG, and are around $4500. I have the
Miller machine (XMT-300) and am very happy with it. The nice thing is
that you can weld frames in TIG mode, and then MIG weld 25mm aluminum
plate for a fixture with the same machine.
: Is there even such a thing as a small, portable *TIG* welder?
There are several machines made. At United Bike Institute we use Miller
Maxstar 152's. They are very reliable, and seem to work better than some
of Millers big machines (like the Syncowave) for welding thin tubing.
Miller also makes a machine called the EconoTig which I would avoid like
the plague. It seem like a great deal, but it has almost no low range
control. Does a great job blowing holes in tubes, though.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Article 16373 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: mike@ols.net (Mike Rembisz)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Speaking of MIG Welders
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 03:09:13 GMT
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A couple of weeks ago I requested info on Mig welders as they pertain
to welding auto bodies and I received a number of responses both pro
and con regarding low amperage welders. Well I bought one, a Century
90 amp MIG welder and I said I would keep you informed of my findings.
Well here goes... I welded in a floor pan in my '67 fastback! It took
me all day to do the job, a lot of time was needed to cut out the old
one and prepare the surface for the new one but the welding went ok.
The 90 amp welder has more than enough power to weld body metal; in
fact , if you don't watch what you're doing it's easy to burn a hole
in the metal on setting 2. As far as the low duty cycle, I discovered
that the Miller, Lincoln, Century, Hobart all have low duty cycles;
about 15-20% at their highest power. But sheet metal is done on 1/4
or 1/2 power! and at least in my case did not weld for more that 30
seconds at a time and then I stopped and checked my work ( usually
crooked). If any of you have been wanting to be weekend welders, go
for it! My welder cost $299 at Sam's Club and then I spent $100 for a
40 cubic foot tank (the book says only a 20 cu. ft tank will fit but
don't believe it. The cost is only $20 more and you get twice the
shielding gas, enough for about 2.5 hours and believe me that's a lot
of welding!!!) The welder works fine, now I just have to learn to
weld a straight line!!!
Mike
Article 57925 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: Walter Gomes
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: RE: MIG vs. TIG-why???
Date: 26 Aug 1995 04:52:51 GMT
Organization: very little
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To: skoop+@pitt.edu
skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis) wrote:
>I'm sure that this has been brought up before, but...
>
>*Why* is TIG welding preferred over MIG welding for bike frames'n'such?
Hey Jim,
The basic difference in tig vs. mig is control. With tig you get much
better heat control, and a much finer bead than wire-feed (mig).
Very good weldors (few and far between) can weld a joint so fine that
its almost indestinguishable [without grinding](BTW a weldor is one who
welds, not the machine).
Using a tig torch is much akin to using a oxy/acetylene torch in that
you control the heat (by varying the freq. with the foot pedal or thumb
wheel) and control the amount of rod you add to the weld puddle. With a
good tig machine its said you can (I can't) weld a razor blade to a boat
anchor. The idea being to make a very hot spot over a very small area and
control it. Tig is also the best way to weld aluminum and stainless steel
(no, not to each other)
On the other hand, mig has the current (heat) and wire speed (rate of
rod added to the puddle) set at the machine. Again, a good weldor can use
this effectively, but us mortals can make use of the better control to
create a better weld. Mig is useful in coarse and/or production work
(it's much faster than tig)
If I were you (which I'm not) I'd try to score a ac/dc tig machine (or a
ac/dc welder and an outboard high freq. aircooled torch). Don't get me
wrong, Mig welders work well, and are probably easier for a beginner to
use. But for a fine welding (eg. bicycle frames, etc.) a good tig has it
beat hands down. You might check rec.crafts.metalworking seems I saw a
post on how to build a tig using an automobile alternator (?) Hope this
helps!
Walter
Article 57964 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: lapdog@crl.com (Gary Helfrich)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: MIG vs. TIG-why???
Date: 26 Aug 1995 20:37:49 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest]
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Walter Gomes (wgomes@earthlink.net) wrote:
: skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis) wrote:
: >I'm sure that this has been brought up before, but...
: >
: >*Why* is TIG welding preferred over MIG welding for bike frames'n'such?
: Hey Jim,
: The basic difference in tig vs. mig is control. With tig you get much
: better heat control, and a much finer bead than wire-feed (mig).
: Very good weldors (few and far between) can weld a joint so fine that
: its almost indestinguishable [without grinding](BTW a weldor is one who
: welds, not the machine).
It is true that the skill of the operator will make up for many
shortcomings in the equipment. I doubt that any weldor (is that like a
Realtor?) can weld .5 mm steel with a mig setup in the confined spaces
that exist in a bike frame. Even if they can, the beads will lood like
something that came out of Huffy on a bad day. Stick with tig for
welding bike frames.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Article 16462 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: jhre@ix.netcom.com (Jim Harvey)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Gas weld auto tube frame ?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:56:10 GMT
Organization: Harvey Racing Engines
Lines: 36
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Mike Rehmus wrote:
>The answer is always yes, if you know what you are doing which, in this case,
>means lots of practice and maybe a class or two. It is so easy to make a
>good-looking but crappy, dangerous weld where, in a critial area, the weld
>will fail under load. Not so bad if you are building fences. Potentially
>a disaster if you are wheeling a 3/4 ton set of wheels down the road and
>a weld breaks.
I could'nt agree with Mike more.
I will go one step further and say FORGET about gas welding your
frame.
If you want to get that involved in making a street rod, buy a MIG
welder. The amount of time that you will have to invest in learning
how to make a safe weld with a mig is far less that that of a gas
torch.
Use only Mild Steel for the frame. If you go Chrome Moly you have to
weld it with TIG (many will argue with me on this but they are wrong -
All Sanctioning bodies REQUIRE that Chrome moly frames/roll bars be
TIG welded. There is a reason for that (The average guy does not have
a TIG welder, so a professional weldor is called)
And as Mike said, not to be taken as a flame, but if you even had to
ask this question, you are not ready to undertake this project. I
would suggest that you bone up on the subject and realize the enormous
amount of work that goes into a project like this.
Not saying that it can't be done, just that a lot more education is
required.
Jim Harvey
Article 16686 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: peter@prospect.anprod.csiro.au (Peter Wiley)
Subject: Re: Gas weld auto tube frame ?
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In article <41co1r$m7i@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> jhre@ix.netcom.com writes:
>If you want to get that involved in making a street rod, buy a MIG
>welder. The amount of time that you will have to invest in learning
>how to make a safe weld with a mig is far less that that of a gas
>torch.
As a person who has trade quals in most of the welding disciplines, I'd
agree MIG is easier than gas. However, it's even easier to do a crappy but
good-looking MIG weld where you don't get sufficient penetration of the
parent material. When I did my courses some years ago, MIG wasn't rated as
suitable for pressure vessel work, just for this reason. We used stick,
gas and TIG for pressure vessel certification.
Took me 2 years, 2 nights/week to learn to weld to pressure standards, in
all positions, using the 4 common methods (sub arc too). Not something you
want to rush into if a weld failure is going to risk someone's life or health.
Peter Wiley
Article 16663 of rec.crafts.metalworking:
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From: Brent Vinson <73762.1017@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Gas weld auto tube frame ?
Date: 27 Aug 1995 03:26:42 GMT
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References:
Simon,
Use a MIG to weld your tube frame. Faster and less heat stress
on the metal.
We do this for a living. Write if you have any specific questions
about auto fabrication.
Good luck!
Brent
--
Brent Vinson
Article 50274 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: yankypom@ix.netcom.com (Gregory Towers)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: help wanted re TIG welding bike frames.
Date: 27 May 1995 08:10:03 GMT
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I have been practicing TIG welding thin wall tubing in anticipation
of making a bicycle but I am finding it hard to get a pretty bead.
Also I am wondering if melt through is acceptable. I know that the
head tube and seat tube are reamed before the painting operation so is
it OK if there is some melt through in these places?
If I weld slow and cold then the HAZ is wide and the bead kind of
ugly and "cold" looking.
If I weld hot and fast and hold a slightly longer arc length then
things look better but I get some melt through.
Which is preferred? Should I use copper back up bars in the
head tube and seat tube?
The tubing is CrMo (4130) and wall thickness is around .032 for the
thinner tubes, my machine is set at around 65 amps.
Any hints and tips would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Greg (yankypom@ix.netcom.com)
Article 50283 of rec.bicycles.tech:
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From: lapdog@crl.com (Gary Helfrich)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: help wanted re TIG welding bike frames.
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.crafts.metalworking
Date: 27 May 1995 08:54:27 -0700
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Gregory Towers (yankypom@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I have been practicing TIG welding thin wall tubing in anticipation
: of making a bicycle but I am finding it hard to get a pretty bead.
: Also I am wondering if melt through is acceptable. I know that the
: head tube and seat tube are reamed before the painting operation so is
: it OK if there is some melt through in these places?
: If I weld slow and cold then the HAZ is wide and the bead kind of
: ugly and "cold" looking.
: If I weld hot and fast and hold a slightly longer arc length then
: things look better but I get some melt through.
Melt through will kill you frame finishing tools. Try to avoid it. With
a 1/16 2% tungsten (the most common for framebuilding) you should keep a
1 mm arc length at all times. Holding a constant arc length is one of
most difficult skills for a beginner to master. Remember that the energy
in the arc goes UP as you pull away, so pulling back is a bad habit. Use
the foot pedal for your heat control.
: Which is preferred? Should I use copper back up bars in the
: head tube and seat tube?
: The tubing is CrMo (4130) and wall thickness is around .032 for the
: thinner tubes, my machine is set at around 65 amps.
The way to control your HAZ is to move quickly. For .8mm tubing I use 95
amps (on a Maxstar 151) and a 1 mm wire. If you can afford one, a pulser
will help you travel even faster and still control your penetration. An
experienced welder can do high quality work without using backup bars.
They are kinda like training wheels...someday you're going to have to
take them off.
If you are really rolling in the dough, you might want to try an inverter
type power source. These machines will respond to your foot control far
quicker than conventional machines, and they are very energy efficient.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
From rhorvat@tbd161.tbd.ford.com Fri Jul 14 09:20:38 EDT 1995
Article: 54263 of rec.bicycles.tech
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From: Robert Horvatich
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: I wanna learn how to weld...need advice
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:03:50 -0400
Organization: Ford Motor Co. -- Standard disclaimers apply.
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On 13 Jul 1995, James W Gourgoutis wrote:
> Folks:
>
> In the continuing series of my rants on getting a job in the bike industry,
> I have a question:
>
> To further boost my chances in getting a job in this field, I'm thinking
> about learning how to weld during the coming winter. I'm currently
> gathering information from my local community college on course
> availability, costs, etc.
A course is a good place to start. Lincoln Electric puts out a very
good hand book on all sorts of welding techniques. This should help
familiarize you with the process as well as provide technical support
for filler alloys and shielding gas mixtures. Most of my knowledge
of welding techniques have come from technicians, books, as well as
practice. With the proper setup and some practice, you should be
able to perform acceptable work.
> Does this sound like a good idea? My rationale is that if I ever get to
> a point in my life where I have the opportunity to build my own frame(s),
> I want to learn how to weld. I also think that it would go well with my
> ME degree.
Yes, it will go good with your ME degree. I would have to wonder just
a bit that if the bike industry is so strong right now and you are having
such a hard time finding a job, how secure is that industry.
> *IF* this sounds like a good plan, is there any area of welding
> technology I should concentrate on? The course description guide from my
> local community college describes a variety of classes, and I'm a bit
> lost on which one(s) to take.
TIG welding should be the primary focus of your studies. There are a
lot of variations to this process that can be more technique than
science.
Rob
email: |"You can't take life too seriously,
rhorvat@tbd161.tbd.ford.com | you don't get out alive." Bugs Bunny
From mkrieg@well.com Fri Jul 14 09:21:23 EDT 1995
Article: 54237 of rec.bicycles.tech
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From: mkrieg@well.com (Michael Krieg)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: I wanna learn how to weld...need advice
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 00:42:07 GMT
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skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis) wrote:
>To further boost my chances in getting a job in this field, I'm thinking
>about learning how to weld during the coming winter. I'm currently
>gathering information from my local community college on course
>availability, costs, etc.
>Does this sound like a good idea? My rationale is that if I ever get to
>a point in my life where I have the opportunity to build my own frame(s),
>I want to learn how to weld.
I took a couple of welding courses at a community college a few years
ago, just for the heck of it. It was lots of fun, and I actually got
pretty good, but I sure wouldn't trust my life to my own welds.
From mbushore@icaen.uiowa.edu Fri Jul 14 10:06:02 EDT 1995
Article: 54262 of rec.bicycles.tech
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From: mbushore@icaen.uiowa.edu
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: I wanna learn how to weld...need advice
Date: 14 Jul 1995 04:16:16 GMT
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In article <3u3o6u$r1b@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis) writes:
|> Folks:
|>
|> In the continuing series of my rants on getting a job in the bike industry,
|> I have a question:
|>
|> To further boost my chances in getting a job in this field, I'm thinking
|> about learning how to weld during the coming winter. I'm currently
|> gathering information from my local community college on course
|> availability, costs, etc.
|>
|> Does this sound like a good idea? My rationale is that if I ever get to
|> a point in my life where I have the opportunity to build my own frame(s),
|> I want to learn how to weld. I also think that it would go well with my
|> ME degree.
Learning to weld is good from a practical standpoint.
Knowing firsthand the limitations of any process can help out when
you are in the design process. You will avoid desiging joints that
are impossible/difficult to miter, jig up, and/or weld.
Half of welding is in welding; half is in setup
and fixturing. The last two-thirds is battling eye-strain
and fatigue.
Some other things to think about, which are,of course, common sense.
1) Lives will be dependant on your welding. This is sort of a heavy thought
at times (at least it was for me, but later drowned out by heavy doses
of the Beastie Boys and Dr. Pepper). This basically meant I practiced my
ass off and was really anal about things until I knew I knew what I was
doing. Death is one of the few things I get anal about.....
2) Someone out there already knows how to weld better than you ever will, but
perhaps doesn't know jack about being an engineer. Its the
"Jack of all trades, master of none" thing going on.
I personally love to weld, but I know my limitations and where my skills
are best used. (I personally excell at sleeping and bullshitting people, YMMV)
Learn to weld to enhance your life and your understanding of the welding
process, etc, but be somewhat realistic in your goals until you are at
least able to feed yourself three times a week.
If you want to get good enough to build frames, then by all means commit
to it and go for it, but I honestly feel it will be rare that you will be
in the situation where you will be both a welder and an engineer.
Its simply too easy to hire good welders.
Case(s) in point -> Does Joe Murray build all of the new Voodoos?
Does Joe B. build all of the Breezers?
Does K. B. build all of the Bontragers?
|> *IF* this sounds like a good plan, is there any area of welding
|> technology I should concentrate on? The course description guide from my
|> local community college describes a variety of classes, and I'm a bit
|> lost on which one(s) to take.
Which ones are offered? The current trend is towards TIG(GTAW) I think.
TIG welding steel is pretty easy to pick up on, and is far more forgiving
than welding AL or Ti. Not that steel can't be complicated, but I think
its much easier. You might also want to know how to braze for doing
such things as braze ons, dropouts, etc. Once you get your two hands talking
to each other, TIG welding and brazing use many of the same motions.
Don't waste your time with learing to stick weld(SAW), or wire weld(MIG/GMAW)
unless you feel some burning desire, or are preparing for a stint working
on a farm or an auto repair shop.
|> Unfortunately, there is NO way I can learn how to weld at the University
|> of Pittsburgh...it's simply not offered. I find out 7 years too late that I
|> went to the wrong school!
Community colleges and tech colleges are excellent for filling in the
practical gaps left by the four(or 7 as the case may be;) ) year schools.
Extra- and Co-curricular(sp) activities such as the SAE design contests
are a groovy way to pick these skills up with only an investment in time.
I personally would be wary of any of my profs here using power tools.
I don't think that I am going to run out and trade in my M.E. wannadegree
for a full time welding job, though. The last time I welded anything
(a stainless steel femur implant for torsional testing, for these keeping
track of the score at home) for money, I got $6.00.
Oddly enough, its the same I get to sweep the floors in the shop,too.
( I _can_ TIG weld holding the torch with my right foot- not a skill
in high demand, but surely one I could charge dearly for...)
|> Thanks for any and all advice!
|>
|> Regards,
|>
|> Jim
While you are at, consider learning about how to work with other
machine tools. The vetical mill and lathe come to mind. A little
experience with these machines goes a long way. If you can talk
intelligently with the machinist working on your latest project, you
will avoid becoming the subject of breaktime tales. If you get good,
you can even forgo the machinist completely (if you have time).
Regards,
Mattttt
From skoop+@pitt.edu Fri Jul 14 10:06:07 EDT 1995
Article: 54279 of rec.bicycles.tech
Path: newsfeed.pitt.edu!skoop
From: skoop+@pitt.edu (James W Gourgoutis)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: I wanna learn how to weld...need advice
Date: 14 Jul 1995 14:05:48 GMT
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In article <3u4r2g$bjd@server05.icaen.uiowa.edu>,
wrote:
>
>Learning to weld is good from a practical standpoint.
>Knowing firsthand the limitations of any process can help out when
>you are in the design process. You will avoid desiging joints that
>are impossible/difficult to miter, jig up, and/or weld.
Right. That's part of the reason I want to do this.
>Some other things to think about, which are,of course, common sense.
>
> I personally love to weld, but I know my limitations and where my skills
> are best used. (I personally excell at sleeping and bullshitting people, YMMV)
> Learn to weld to enhance your life and your understanding of the welding
> process, etc, but be somewhat realistic in your goals until you are at
> least able to feed yourself three times a week.
>
> If you want to get good enough to build frames, then by all means commit
> to it and go for it, but I honestly feel it will be rare that you will be
> in the situation where you will be both a welder and an engineer.
> Its simply too easy to hire good welders.
Of course. My aspirations are more to go work for somebody else, rather
than becoming my own frame builder. Ideally, I want to get a job doing
*something* of a technical nature in a mid-sized bike manufacturing company.
(I'm not super-picky, in case you didn't notice. :) ) I realize that it
takes many, many years of practice and experience to get to the point
where I could actually be *hired* as a professional welder (i.e. I know
that one of KB's guys used to work in the aircraft industry). I just
want to be good enough to be able to hack my own ideas together. (ala
Chunk 666 if you know what that means).
I've been conversing with a few other engineering students/etc. from this
newsgroup, and many of them have already designed and built components
and bike frames.
Additionally, I've always been the "hands-on" type, and I'm NOT getting
ANY hands-on experience doing anything in grad school. This is another
reason for my wanting to learn to weld.
>Case(s) in point -> Does Joe Murray build all of the new Voodoos?
> Does Joe B. build all of the Breezers?
> Does K. B. build all of the Bontragers?
True. But, at least, KB started out as a custom frame builder. All by
himself. And look where it's gotten him. :) (not to say that the
others didn't, I just don't know as much about them.)
>|> *IF* this sounds like a good plan, is there any area of welding
>|> technology I should concentrate on? The course description guide from my
>|> local community college describes a variety of classes, and I'm a bit
>|> lost on which one(s) to take.
>
>Which ones are offered? The current trend is towards TIG(GTAW) I think.
>
>TIG welding steel is pretty easy to pick up on, and is far more forgiving
>than welding AL or Ti. Not that steel can't be complicated, but I think
>its much easier. You might also want to know how to braze for doing
>such things as braze ons, dropouts, etc. Once you get your two hands talking
>to each other, TIG welding and brazing use many of the same motions.
>
>Don't waste your time with learing to stick weld(SAW), or wire weld(MIG/GMAW)
>unless you feel some burning desire, or are preparing for a stint working
>on a farm or an auto repair shop.
>
Right...this is what I thought, too. But it seems that the curriculum at
the community college starts you out learning stick welding and GMAW.
You have to take 3 or 4 classes before you have the prerequisites to take
TIG. I guess there's really no way around that, though. Quoting from
the course description guide:
WLD101 Welding Fundamentals (3 credits/2 lecture & 2 lab hours)
A course on theory and safety procedures. Students develop
competency in the following shielded metal-arc welding procedures:
stringer beads, butt welds, and T-joints in the flat and horizontal
positions. Students become familiar with oxy-fuel flame cutting
equipment and its application.
WLD102 Advanced Welding (3 credits/2 lecture & 2 lab hours)
Prerequisite: WLD101
A course on out-of-position shielded metal-arc welding with
emphasis on proper heats, electrode selections, and AC/DC currents.
Welding positions include horizontal, vertical, and overhead.
WLD201 Preparation for Weld Certification (3 credits/2 lecture & 2 lab
hours) Prerequisite: WLD 102